[Editor's Note: We've all heard about White Male Privilege as discussed by Peggy McIntosh and Tim Wise, but is there a such thing as Black Male Privilege? L’Heureux Lewis (assistant professor of sociology at the City University of New York) talks to NPR's Michel Martin about why he thinks Black Male Privilege exists. Two of our male staff writers weigh in.]
Does Black Male Privilege Exist?
Antoine, 23: Yes. As Black men, we are having a hard time getting jobs, but for that reason, we should feel compelled to also bring our women along and fight for them as we also fight for ourselves.
Since there is a new sun, I must again learn something new. I am very glad that Fresh Xpress introduced this conversation to me. I was aware of this mindset on a very basic level, but this conversation opened my mind to a responsibility that we as black men have when it comes to our community. This is a responsibility that we have passively bestowed upon our women for quite some time now. I took a women’s studies class, and we touched on the fact that women as a whole are still not receiving equal opportunities in the work place. However the tables turn when you focus on our race as a whole. As black men we do compartmentalize our problems as one dimensional.
Yes, we are having a hard time getting jobs, but for that reason, we should feel compelled to also bring our women along and fight for them as we also fight for ourselves. On the flip side, many of us are afraid that women can do a betterjob than us, and thus we will not relinquish connections that will strengthen our threshold on the larger system of oppression. We often lose ourselves trying to assimilate in efforts to move to the top of these predominately white corporations, and we end up adopting our counterpart race’s age-old practice of systematic sexism and misogyny. Then, we end up fighting a two-part battle- trying to keep our character and then putting our cultural agenda into motion. A good analogy would be the movie “In Too Deep.” Just as our black women have remained loyal to us, we should start returning the favor.
On the topic of negotiating sex, I would have to agree with the notion that some of us who have achieved some type of success academically, socially and/or economically do feel entitled or privileged if you will, to have our pick of the litter. We are even told by our parents to ‘explore our options’ because of the perceived stock value that we have to offer women. We are taught to not be responsible for our mindset towards dating from an early age, and it is not until we read a book or turn off the television that we consider otherwise. So then, our black women are stuck in this mindset of hating black men because the cream of the crop are like baby beanstalks, undeveloped. They are faced with the option of 1) dating someone who they perceive to not be compatible intellectually and/or professionally, 2) dating a man with the ‘prerequisites’ and have their heart broken, or 3) dating outside the race.
I also believe that there is a matriarch myth when it comes to our community. Our women are remarkably strong and undoubtedly capable of being the head of a home, but a man at the head of our community is second to none. Our women shouldn’t have to be mothers and fathers. Over the years, the media has characterized us as aggressive and as a result, in schools they teach us to be passive. That is not a man’s place. We are to be aggressive about our home, our marriages, and our communities.
Markies, 26: No. The concept of Black Male privilege utilizes a circular logic that ends up right where it started. This is more about African American’s gender inequalities which are similar across all races.
I disagree. I believe this is a prime example of over analyzation for the sake of creating new thought…thought that runs in circles. Makes some interestingly significant points, yet the overall concept just can’t stick. Maybe he needs to term the concept differently. It almost starts to develop into a microcosm in African American’s gender inequalities which are similar across all races. I see it as him utilizing the term “Black Male Privilege” in a manner to deliberately draw attention to the idea (based on the associated popularity with which on the surface appears to be the counterpart) White Male Privilege. But this has nothing to do with his abstract concept. In his explanation, he immediately speaks to the gender comparison of men versus women (black). This in my opinion is addressed in other concepts…more generally sexism. How does this prove a ‘Black Male Privilege’ in particular? If his aim is to simply advise that there is a male dominating element that exists in the relationship between men and women, then how about he builds on the already existing concepts to incorporate the black societal structure?
I must say that his pointing out a difference in black families that tends to lean towards a matriarchy is factual in myopinion or rather an apparent factual observation. However, I yet again fail to understand how this can not simply be another area to expound on an existing concept, family structure. I would like to hear or read an article from him expounding on this point of the black family structure being primarily a matriarchy or patriarchy. This deserves more discussion.
Yet after hearing his interesting take on sexism to relate it to “Black Male Privilege”, I cannot help but compare the concept to a dog chasing its tail type of logic. I mean, so because a black man is underprivileged, he is somehow empowered by this. I understand that. It’s as if it has become an enabling norm in society, similar to some one who is sick is able to get away with not having to come to work and receiving more than the normal care. Got it. Yet the key difference here is that, there is no curing being a black man. Even if you are enabled on one occasion or for a period of time, at the end of the day you still remain underprivileged. So how does that translate into any long term “Black Male Privilege”? It’s a circular logic that ends up right where is started, in which case the thought is an exercise in futility.
Look if he was to draw attention to some the valid points regarding the differences in black culture, I understand and that is commendable. But using a term such as “Black Male Privilege” seems to be more of a publicity stunt as oppose to a creditable concept.
What do you think FXP readers? Do you agree or disagree with either of our contributors specifically? Do you feel that Black Male Privilege exists? Why or why not?
Article by FreshXpress Staff
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{ 35 comments… read them below or add one }
I agree with Markies. I really thought dude was just trying to be provacitive and get exposed to outlets like NPR. his reasoning was circular. as someone else put it, black male privelidge is male privilidge the black part lessens, cancels out, or even makes a deficit.
and i did think the original article made some good points, although i dont think they advanced his theory (as markie also pointed out.)
I thought the negotiating sex aspect was interesting. but I think the prof left out that it is a negotiation and it takes place over time. men who have success at one point didnt. somehow they got it in their heads that when they became successful they would have their choice of women. could it be women that were their peers when they didnt have shit taught them this by not giving them the time of day instead giving all their attention to older dudes and people with nice cars? i think so. got to look at the negotiation and see how it unfolded over time. songs like wait til i get my money right resonate for a reason. when women had the upper hand in negotiations – high school, college – they werent really checkin for the avg bro cant be mad when avg bro grows up and aint checkin too hard for you. by the time dude is successful alot of shit has gone down to make him feel the way he does about women.
FRESH: The Great Debate: Black Male Privilege: Does Black Male Privilege exist? What do you think? Two of our cont… http://bit.ly/danAZ5
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I’ve never felt the black male privilege theory, but I will say Lewis took an approach that was more logical than the list produced by Jewel Woods a while back. The most important factor is that none of these things exist in a vaccum. What bothers me more than where I might end up in these disscussions is that it divides the whole. If everything mentioned here was addressed by black men in the capacity that they are able, there would still be the issues black men face left to deal with and they would still affect black women.
Check out @thefreshxpress The Great Debate: Black Male Privilege — theFreshXpress.com — http://bit.ly/9QZn1E for my post.
This comment was originally posted on Twitter
Black Male Privilege (BMP) in my opinion nothing more than patriarchy exerted by black males. Not some new phenomenon by any means which is why I agree with his theory. If you study cultures of domination, there is a hierarchy of white dominance, capitalism, patriarchy, racism, classism and heterosexism and you will see that those who are on the normative side of the spectrum in any of these categories have a chance to take on the role as oppressor. For instance, a hetereo-normative white male can take on every single culture of domination and a straight black male can take on every culture except white dominance, and so forth as you take into account social identities.
The reason there is a distinction between simply “sexism” and BMP as it relates specifically to his argument is no different than the distinction we have between “Black America” and “White America” which yields “black culture” and “white culture” respectively. There is a causal relationship between the two in that the former was born out of an exclusion to the latter. BMP is born out of White Male Privilege.
“Even if you are enabled on one occasion or for a period of time, at the end of the day you still remain underprivileged. So how does that translate into any long term “Black Male Privilege”?”
That quote is essentially what he talked about in his interview, when you allow your oppression to blind you from understanding the ways in which you could possibly oppress another person. Black Male Privilege disallows a black man from understanding how he could possibly oppress a black woman, when the historical ramifications of racism have placed his back against a wall. Just the same, as a straight black woman, there is a privilege that I have that may for instance allow me to turn a blind eye to injustices faced by say a white gay male. That is what he is talking about when he speaks of a privilege. The privilege one has in not taking seriously how as an oppressed, they too can become an oppressor.
Agreed.
Agree with Brittany.
FreshXpress Today. The Great Debate: Black Male Privilege – http://bit.ly/auwAig
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A very good read RT @soulonice6: FreshXpress Today. The Great Debate: Black Male Privilege – http://bit.ly/auwAig http://myloc.me/502jx
This comment was originally posted on Twitter
I think everyone is making good points here. I definitely agree with some of what Dr. Lewis is saying, as well as what Antoine said, but I also see where Markiel and Amadeo are coming from, and Brittany also makes excellent points.
For me to really grasp the concept of Black Male Privilege, it took becoming receptive to multiple modes of voice and thought, because it will seem ridiculous to put Black male and privilege in the same sentence, simply based off of the terminology, and our concept of privilege. Even now, grasping this concept is a work in progress, but it definitely has merit, especially when you expose yourself to what Black women go through, and do so through THEIR books, writings, voice, etc. The concept is definitely valid. The entire concept is multidimensional; the hope is that folks become and remain open to a variety of voices and thought. That’s the only way it can be fully understood.
Ur welcome! Sheesh! RT @WallyVega: An Article by @thefreshxpress ….im also featured in it… ===> http://bit.ly/a21hDi
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Some good points being raised. But isnt it possible black women have privilege in areas that black men do not? Couldn’t a black woman oppress a black man? i do not think this “hierarchy” is as linear as Brittany, or even Lewis thinks it is. Seems like a gross oversimplification, a dangerous and divisive one at that.
In my comment, I actually touched on the privilege that I may have as a black woman. Additionally, in my thoughts I never once asserted that this hierarchy was indeed linear, that was attributed to me, by yourself. What I said, was simply there was a hierarchy. A person could possess all of those characteristics of domination or they could simply possess one. Nevertheless, even if they only possess one, they could oppress a person who does not fit into that category.
If you go into Gender Women’s Studies, you will read that scholars often state they believe Black women in the grand scheme of things, are often on the bottom of this hierarchy, when you look at the heteronormative white male. HOWEVER, that is not to say that we cannot be oppressive in other ways. Again, I talked about that in my comment. As a straight black woman, who actively participates in a capitalistic society, indeed I can oppress a black man. Yet, when I acknowledge this, I acknowledge my privilege.
The argument about Black Male Privilege is NOT saying that black men aren’t oppressed, but it is simply stating that black men are sometimes ignorant in the ways in which they can oppress others.
arent we all sometimes ignorant to the ways in which we oppress others?
moreover, by linear, I mean you cannot say black women are on the bottom of a hierarchy. In my field, I read law review articles; particularly critical race theory articles, and many of them have stated the many disadvantages black men face that black women do not encounter. Im talking about the prison industrial complex, less freedom to engage in identity politics in office settings, family law systems that discriminate against men without economic resources (black men), and an educational system that marginalizes black boys by devaluing their cultural performances. Then black women receive benefits that black men do not receive, like double affirmative action. In the legal field, the highest paid demographic for starting attorneys is not white men or any type of man for that matter, it is black females. And in your original comment you said a black female can oppress a homosexual black male, but said nothing of a straight black male. All this to say, everyone is at risk for ignoring ways in which we oppress others, but if the premise of the article is black men are so oppressed that in the off rare occassion we even have the power to impress someone else, that we dont realize it, then I dont see the purpose in such a theory much less naming it “black male priviledge.”
***The irony of your name being “oversimplified” because that is what you continue to do with my comments.
“arent we all sometimes ignorant to the ways in which we oppress others?”
***Yes.
“moreover, by linear, I mean you cannot say black women are on the bottom of a hierarchy.”
***If you read my comment, I did not say that black women are on the bottom of the hierarchy. I was regurgitating thoughts from Black Scholars, as I pointed out.
“In my field, I read law review articles; particularly critical race theory articles, and many of them have stated the many disadvantages black men face that black women do not encounter. Im talking about the prison industrial complex, less freedom to engage in identity politics in office settings, family law systems that discriminate against men without economic resources (black men), and an educational system that marginalizes black boys by devaluing their cultural performances.”
***ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?! Apologies for the caps, i.e. yelling, but seriously, are you fa real? Black women don’t encounter the prison industrial complex? What are they having you read? And why isn’t it accurate? Read Angela Davis, Nancy Kurshan, Paula C. Johnson, Patricia Hill Collins, Audre Lorde, and then tell me that women don’t have to deal with the Prison Industrial Complex. The number of women, specifically women of color that are being imprisoned for petty offenses and drug related offenses has skyrocketed over the years.
Furthermore, re: family law systems that discriminate against men. What do you think welfare does against black women? Surely, you jest. Because while welfare dictates that a man not be present in the home, it has just as much negative effect on black women. Black men are stereotyped as not taking care of their kids, and black women are stereotyped as welfare queens. It is lose/lose which is why I stated in another comment that it is dangerous to play this “I’m more oppressed than you game.”
While we’re at it, if you want to play the woe is me game on black males in the educational system, read Janice Hales-Benson, read Debbie Weekes who talks about how the construction of sexual identity plays out in the ways that young black girls are treated socialized in our schools
by their educators. See I’ve read information on both sides of the spectrum. So I can acknowledge the oppression faced by black males, and it just grinds my gears when black women aren’t given that same respect back. And that goes for any one who doesn’t acknowledge another person’s oppression.
“Then black women receive benefits that black men do not receive, like double affirmative action. In the legal field, the highest paid demographic for starting attorneys is not white men or any type of man for that matter, it is black females.”
***I’m not that well versed in the legal field, but it is an argumentative fallacy to use one field of employment to prove a point about every field because that is surely not the case across the board. Furthermore, when it comes to affirmative action, white women still benefit at a larger percentage than black women or men. And just to go back to your point about black females in the legal field in starting positions, I’m not sure about their salaries being higher than black males, but what I do know is that starting salaries aside, black men in these positions are able to climb faster than black women into higher positions such as partner and equity partners than black women.
“And in your original comment you said a black female can oppress a homosexual black male, but said nothing of a straight black male.”
***My comments are about progression. You chose to go back to my original comment even AFTER I answered your question, in the affirmative might I add, as to if and can a black woman oppress a straight black male. But, just to be a stickler for having myself quoted correctly, I mentioned a homosexual white male, in my first comment. Not homosexual black man.
“All this to say, everyone is at risk for ignoring ways in which we oppress others, but if the premise of the article is black men are so oppressed that in the off rare occassion we even have the power to impress someone else, that we dont realize it, then I dont see the purpose in such a theory much less naming it “black male priviledge.”
***The premise of the article is NOT Black men are “so oppressed that in the off rare occassion we even have the power to impress someone else, that we dont realize it.” The premise of the article is that in actually while there are ways in which you are oppressed you actually aren’t that damned oppressed to spend your life bitching and moaning about it and not realizing that you too can oppress someone else.
As I said earlier, to get into fisticuffs about “who is oppressed more” is silly and ridiculous. Pardon me for the adult analogy to follow but, if a black man wouldn’t stand in a room with other black men and have a contest about “whose d*ck is smaller” then why continuously engage in these battles with your female counterpart. I mean because at the end of the day even if your d*ck was small you’d still have a mindset that it was big enough to do what it’s supposed to, which is screw someone.
i think we can agree on this: all this talk about who is more oppressed is bullshit. However, by Lewis framing his argument in comparative terms (privilidged as compared to who?) that is exactly what he is doing. By incorporating his work in your analysis, in a way that affirms his work, you are engaging in the same “who is more oppressed bullshit.”
“If you read my comment, I did not say that black women are on the bottom of the hierarchy. I was regurgitating thoughts from Black Scholars, as I pointed out.”
Again, if you are going to use the work of someone else and put it into your analysis you are by default agreeing with the sentiment. Those become your thoughts as well, unless you say otherwise. you did not. you advanced them as part of your argument. This is what you said:
“A person could possess all of those characteristics of domination or they could simply possess one.”
these are the categories you gave:
“capitalism, patriarchy, racism, classism and heterosexism and you will see that those who are on the normative side of the spectrum in any of these categories have a chance to take on the role as oppressor.”
As a logical extension, black men can hold 4 of the 5 “categories.” Black women 3 of the 5. Therefore, by that analytic, black women are lower on the hierarchy than black men. I do not think it is that linear. sorry. I believe race and sex interacts in ways that are unpredictable and messy. And yes, can lead to results where a black woman is conferred advantages over black men in areas where normally a man would be an oppressor. Not always, but it happens.
“***My comments are about progression. You chose to go back to my original comment even AFTER I answered your question, in the affirmative might I add, as to if and can a black woman oppress a straight black male. But, just to be a stickler for having myself quoted correctly, I mentioned a homosexual white male, in my first comment. Not homosexual black man.”
I didnt think this was relevant to our disagreement at all, but you are right. I apologize for quoting you out of context. *sigh*
“***The premise of the article is NOT Black men are “so oppressed that in the off rare occassion we even have the power to impress someone else, that we dont realize it.” The premise of the article is that in actually while there are ways in which you are oppressed you actually aren’t that damned oppressed to spend your life bitching and moaning about it and not realizing that you too can oppress someone else.”
I didn’t get that from the interview. His focus was less on the “black man’s” bitching and moaning as you put it, than societies focus on black male issues. Moreover, he didnt even have that much of a problem with society focusing on black men. As he did acknowledge black men and their numerous problems and them being a legitimate cause of concern. his main concern was black females getting lost in the mix and black men not realizing that they too are oppressors on some occasions.
To which I pointed out, we all can oppress others, so i dont see the point in singling out black men who have little to do with media focus and little to do with the oppression of black females for that matter. It seems divisive. We are not the ones oppressing black females, homosexuals, poor people, what have you. a wife beating black man is not a wife beater because he is black and therefore doesnt see how he is oppressing a black woman, he is a wife beater because he is a Peice of shit. a black man that votes against welfare measures is not doing that because he is black and therefore doesnt see how he is oppressing by class, he is doing it because he is classist. Black does not modify any of these paradigms, if anything blackness inserts a ping of sympathy, hence black people being the “moral concsious” of america. I could go on with examples like that. I just dont see the point of the study. He is an opportunist out for sparking controversy by being ironic.
“As I said earlier, to get into fisticuffs about “who is oppressed more” is silly and ridiculous. Pardon me for the adult analogy to follow but, if a black man wouldn’t stand in a room with other black men and have a contest about “whose d*ck is smaller” then why continuously engage in these battles with your female counterpart. I mean because at the end of the day even if your d*ck was small you’d still have a mindset that it was big enough to do what it’s supposed to, which is screw someone.”
lol..you started. see my first two points.
“*I’m not that well versed in the legal field, but it is an argumentative fallacy to use one field of employment to prove a point about every field because
not doing that. i used one field. that is that one field. I did not extend it to other fields.
“that is surely not the case across the board.
stats?
Furthermore, when it comes to affirmative action, white women still benefit at a larger percentage than ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!
white women are the biggest beneficiary, but black women are right after them, black men hardly benefit from those programs in corporate hiring.
Apologies for the caps, i.e. yelling, but seriously, are you fa real? Black women don’t encounter the prison industrial complex?
hardly at the rates we do. are you serious? even looking at racial stops by police officers. racial profiling etc. Black men are waaay disproportianately pulled over.
What are they having you read? And why isn’t it accurate? Read Angela Davis, Nancy Kurshan, Paula C. Johnson, Patricia Hill Collins, Audre Lorde, and then tell me that women don’t have to deal with the Prison Industrial Complex.
again, yall do. but please. black men encounter it at so much higher rates i cant believe you are arguing this.
The number of women, specifically women of color that are being imprisoned for petty offenses and drug related offenses has skyrocketed over the years.
true. 1 to 3 percent is tripled. its a problem. but black men up around 40 percent in cities like b-more…come on
Furthermore, re: family law systems that discriminate against men. What do you think welfare does against black women? Surely, you jest. Because while welfare dictates that a man not be present in the home, it has just as much negative effect on black women. Black men are stereotyped as not taking care of their kids, and black women are stereotyped as welfare queens. It is lose/lose which is why I stated in another comment that it is dangerous to play this “I’m more oppressed than you game.”
it is dangerous. im indulging you because you dont seem to see the black female privilidge.
While we’re at it, if you want to play the woe is me game on black males in the educational system, read Janice Hales-Benson, read Debbie Weekes who talks about how the construction of sexual identity plays out in the ways that young black girls are treated socialized in our schools
by their educators. See I’ve read information on both sides of the spectrum. So I can acknowledge the oppression faced by black males, and it just grinds my gears when black women aren’t given that same respect back. And that goes for any one who doesn’t acknowledge another person’s oppression.”
I read both sides. and i understand black women get slammed, but i dont see the point in articles like these. it does not help. my very first comment was it is divisive.
“***I’m not that well versed in the legal field, but it is an argumentative fallacy to use one field of employment to prove a point about every field because that is surely not the case across the board. Furthermore, when it comes to affirmative action, white women still benefit at a larger percentage than black women or men. And just to go back to your point about black females in the legal field in starting positions, I’m not sure about their salaries being higher than black males, but what I do know is that starting salaries aside, black men in these positions are able to climb faster than black women into higher positions such as partner and equity partners than black women.”
i never said that applied to all fields. i thought i pointed out i was talking about the legal field. one instance where double affirmative action has benefited black women. you are right about partner paths etc…black women are also the most unhappy demographic at the firms with the highest turnover.
Not to really agree with any one point on this discussion but to sound a little overt..in what context are they really trying to define black male priviledge??..if you want my opinion from a work place or financial standpoint BMP (in my opinion) does not exist cause the rules are always bent towards your white counterparts (more to the point white men)…and if you want to do it from a male/female perspective, black men have always been subjected to the mental hazing of societal restraints by means of education, finance and career endeavors so in turn when your not “allowed into the card game” so to speak, you to would feel mentally down trodden and in turn it will start to effect those relationships around you, i.e. girlfriend, wife, daughter, son etc….please know that slavery was meant to be effective for a reason and “they” knew you had start with the head of a family or “group” to help tear down and start the assemblance of mental control….so to answer your question do i believe in BMP?…..naww not for real..lol….cause unless you can shoot a wicked jump shot or make a crowd move to your verse you really have no real concept of a BMP lifestyle..
You touched on slavery in your comment, and it always intrigues me in the ways that slavery is discussed in patriarchal terms. That is in the ways black men were negatively affected. This to me is the historical lineage that is passed down to black men now which to this day cripples them from understanding their privilege. Very rarely is there an in depth discourse on black women’s oppression in slavery.
Yes, black men were removed from households, however the black female’s lacked autonomy over her body for hundreds of years in order to perpetuate this institute. And while, the master is also blamed for the rape of black women in order to continue this chattle slavery, black men and their privilege disallowed them from claiming agency by blaming their master’s when they too participated in the rape of black women in order to reproduce the slave population. So this discussion goes a lot deeper than this post can touch on, but BMP even existed in the realm of slavery which many people fail to recognize.
That is not said by me in order to place full blame on black men or to be divisive, but like I said early BMP is birthed out of White Male Privilege. Not only that, but in the present context of when you talk about jobs, etc. Yes, there are still obstacles that black men and women face, however, one of the ways in which BMP surfaces is even in acknowledging that Black women may graduate college and enter the workforce faster, Black men don’t look at the fact that in the same position, a black man’s pay is still higher than a black woman’s. So there is still privilege.
I think it gets dangerous when we start playing this game of “I’m more oppressed than you.”
jesus. for this whole who has it worse stuff to be bullshit you sure engage in alot of it. are you really saying black men had priviledge over black women because they were forced to rape them? seems like they were both raped. moreover, do you realize that they picked out the baddest man and whooped his ass and cut his balls off. that on the slave ships some women were allowed out of the bowels of the boat and allowed to walk around without chains because they were not perceived as a threat, sounds like BFP to me but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
this shit is fucking retarded man. White people really fucked us, back then, and now, to have us looking at each other and how we are shitting on one another instead of coming together and seeing what the real deal is. crap. this shit with BMP is so far on the margins and so nominal as regards to what is really fucking black women it is a waste of time discussing it in light of all our other very real problems. SMH at the alacrity some people buy into this stuff. It belies other issues.
I’m sorry, who do you think you are talking to? My point was to show there are two sides to EVERY story. I was engaged in conversation, which I can obviously do since this is a forum where people TALK. I don’t engage with feeble minds, which is clearly what you have shown you are, since you can’t even continue an intellectual debate without spewing forth vituperation. I would curse you out and prove to be just as much as mental midget as you are, but I don’t need to because it’s obvious that it’s knowledge that really pisses you off and not ignorance.
are you kidding me? cursing does not equal cursing you out. you have been the one engaging in ad hominem attacks, including this last post, this whole time. my response above did not have one insult or curse word, despite your penis analagy, scream, and personal attack. nice cop out though. dont get in the kitchen if you cant stand the heat
See this is the problem I’ve had with you the entire time. You read but don’t comprehend. I never said you cursed me out.
Furthermore, It is hardly a matter of not being able to stand the heat. Trust me, as you can see I can debate on and on for days and not once use profanity because I know that it devalues my argument. Was taught NEVER let em see me sweat, especially when I’m trying to make a point. Profanity has no place in an intellectual debate an when it does step on the scene it becomes a battle of small minds. I’m not going back and forth with you anymore. You’re just looking for a fight now with your “can’t take the heat” psuedo-intimidation, since clearly you wanted me to stop talking anyway. I’ll let you have this one, don’t worry. You can stay here in all your #groupthink glory and look for the next person who doesn’t agree with you in order to pick a fight. Also learned a long time ago, never argue with fools, people from a distance can’t tell who’s who.
since you havent read any of my analysis and real criticism of your points, I will conclude here: you have gone in on ad hominem attacks from the second post you made towards me. (I did not do any until the very last one). You continue to give ad hominem attacks and lecture on points so far from the discussion (note even when i cursed it was germane to our argument and NOT directed to you). and you have not addressed a SINGLE one of my legitimate points against you when I broke down your argument instead you chose to focus on curse words and what you learned about debate in middle school when get this >…you were using personal attacks before i even started to curse. I still have not personally attacked you. you were simply outclassed with arguments, noticed it, and decided to take it elsewhere. good for you. but you are not fooling anyone.
i think we can agree on this: all this talk about who is more oppressed is bullshit. However, by Lewis framing his argument in comparative terms (privilidged as compared to who?) that is exactly what he is doing. By incorporating his work in your analysis, in a way that affirms his work, you are engaging in the same “who is more oppressed bullshit.”
“If you read my comment, I did not say that black women are on the bottom of the hierarchy. I was regurgitating thoughts from Black Scholars, as I pointed out.”
Again, if you are going to use the work of someone else and put it into your analysis you are by default agreeing with the sentiment. Those become your thoughts as well, unless you say otherwise. you did not. you advanced them as part of your argument. This is what you said:
“A person could possess all of those characteristics of domination or they could simply possess one.”
these are the categories you gave:
“capitalism, patriarchy, racism, classism and heterosexism and you will see that those who are on the normative side of the spectrum in any of these categories have a chance to take on the role as oppressor.”
As a logical extension, black men can hold 4 of the 5 “categories.” Black women 3 of the 5. Therefore, by that analytic, black women are lower on the hierarchy than black men. I do not think it is that linear. sorry. I believe race and sex interacts in ways that are unpredictable and messy. And yes, can lead to results where a black woman is conferred advantages over black men in areas where normally a man would be an oppressor. Not always, but it happens.
real points. I comprehend your arguments fine. do you comprehend your own arguments? or are you just regurgitating what you read…hmmm
For using a WHOLE LOTTA words & giving a tometastic reply, you have a talent for STILL not saying nothing of concrete logic and reason. Using “ad hominem” and “alacrity” randomly do not make your point more valid. But shoutout to you for reading Dictionary.com’s text message “word of the day.” Just… kudos.
I do believe she answered your points, but in your quest for right-ness (which will probably not come), that high horse you’re sitting on won’t let you even consider another viewpoint.
That is all.
ad hominem = personal attack here they all are
“The irony of your name being “oversimplified” because that is what you continue to do with my comments.”
“I don’t engage with feeble minds, which is clearly what you have shown you are”
“prove to be just as much as mental midget as you are”
“it’s obvious that it’s knowledge that really pisses you off ”
#groupthink glory
argue with fools
small minds
have not done that one time to her. and she said my cursing started her off when she began cursing first with the bitching and moaning bit.
that help luvie…is that concrete enough
P.S. And you old.
bet i look younger than you though
and you cursed first….”bitching and moaning”..so you broke your own rule…lol… I think the problem is you are in love with the rhythm of your words but shun their meaning. like how you regurgitated the hierarchy theory but didnt understand its logical implications. you kept saying how you didnt say that because you quoted someone, ignoring the fact that you made it part of your argument. That you didnt say black women were at the bottom of a hierarchy because you never used those words. but if 3 + c =4 then c is 1. it doesnt matter if you have defined c or not. anyway, i could argue all day, i get paid for it so this is like practice for me. ill leave you be. im really not a bully by nature.
“This to me is the historical lineage that is passed down to black men now which to this day cripples them from understanding their privilege.”
Passed down??…men who were subjected to mental and physical dogma through years of systematic oppression…there was nothing needed to be passed down since this has been a documented and/or spoken part of our history for multiple generations…we were all subject to reading these horrid acts through the many world history books throughout school and other avenues of learning…
“black female’s lacked autonomy over her body for hundreds of years in order to perpetuate this institute.”
and black men weren’t looked upon in the same way?….from a sexual standpoint (if that’s the point your trying to make) i understand your point however, we were PROPERTY as well, barely having minimal (to no) ideal of self identity…we were used at the discretion of said slave master, owner, etc.
“black men and their privilege disallowed them from claiming agency by blaming their master’s when they too participated in the rape of black women in order to reproduce the slave population.”
Rape??….disallowence of claiming??….most slave populus had family or some form of patriachal structure through the male, however was stripped of that position or “appointment” by way of tearing apart of family ties and relationships through sell or barter of family members by the owner/slave master….in turn you had a system of two paradigms 1) single or 2)”kept”(cared for by alternate male slaves) slave women mothering multiple children from different men due to relocation or seling of the man by order of the owner/slave master, fleeing of the man out of necessity for his family’s safety and/or protection or outright murder or wrongful death by the hands of a owner/slave master leaving the women with the load to bear….yes, you did have your share of slave men taking advantage of situations with there female counterparts, but with all things just as you have a to and fro, a up and down, a beginning and end you also will have your good and bad….
“Black men don’t look at the fact that in the same position, a black man’s pay is still higher than a black woman’s.”
Well its a fact that im sitting here at my computer typing this message but in the same sentence can get up and leave and change the overall occurrence and/or perspective.
I don’t believe anyone is trying to marginalize the black womans’ noted mistreatment and/or abuse by hands not her own during slavery cause at the end of the day we all suffered through no fault of our own. But to say BMP is somehow prevelant for black men by way of our white counterparts to me is an ideal that holds no weight due to the many stark contrasts pointed out in my previous statement and also by the ever present racial undertones spewed forth (by way of there actions and words) everyday by our white constituents…
I kind of agree with the theory of black male privilege. I think in our community, if a black man is self destructive, black people blame his behavior on his absent dad and THE MAN but black women without dads are expected to be responsible because “the system” helps us more than men– we are suppose to “make it through the storm.”
Growing up, I noticed my elders expected me to work hard, be responsible, etc. and guys were excused for their ridiculous actions–elders believed they were just rebelling against an unfair life. Bull crap—if guys are rebellious and in the same household as a responsible girl sibling, they need their butt whipped! Bottom Line!
Life is hard for us too. No one’s life is perfect. Believe me!!! Girls/Women are sexually harassed, cheated on, left alone to raise a house full of kids, abused, etc. So, if women can make it through all that crap, so can men/boys. They just need to pray to God and lean on Him for help.
So, yes, their is black male privilege. I’ve witnessed it and it makes me sick.
Dear Goons of Pump Phi Pump. We rolling out. Dude’s tryna pull it w/ @Lurrelle. Meet me here at 1:16pm http://bit.ly/9zvbCU
This comment was originally posted on Twitter
Here is my response on @thefreshxpress to dude. I may have just told him bout his life. http://bit.ly/bOxa0c
This comment was originally posted on Twitter
LMAO RT @luvvieig Dear Goons of Pump Phi Pump. We rollin out. Dude’s tryna pull it w/ @Lurrelle. Meet me here @ 1:16pm http://bit.ly/9zvbCU
This comment was originally posted on Twitter